Julia: Welcome to another season of The Every Lawyer. I’m Julia Tétrault-Provencher.

What an honour to start with an episode on CBA, SOJIC, which as of September 1^st, 2023, has changed its name to SAGDA. Yes, a scoop on The Every Lawyer. You heard it here first. The CBA Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Community, the SOJIC, is now SAGDA, the Sexual and Gender Diversity Alliance. In French, ADSG, L’Alliance a la Diversité Sexuelle et de Genre.

The reason for the name change as we shall hear is to more accurately reflect the diversity within the 2SLGBTQI+ legal community. The acronym SOJIC did not recognize previously in its name, gender expression or sex characteristics. And the executive of the section wanted a name and acronym to better reflect these as well as other diverse identity markers. And what’s also very nice, the word alliance contains the word ally.

Voice Over:This is The Every Lawyer, presented by the Canadian Bar Association.

Julia: Our guests today are Hossein Moghtaderi, outgoing Chair of the newly renamed section, and Chris Ellis, SOJIC Chair from the early 2000s. So let’s jump right into our discussion about the new name.

In a truly Canadian fashion the need for a bilingual solution played a part. I have a question about that because in French it tends to say Les Personnes de la Diversité Sexuelle de Genre. So do you have the same in English?

Hossein: So SAGDA is exactly that.

Julia: Ah, that’s it okay! Good, perfect.

Hossein: Voila. So that’s what the French – the French will finally make sense, the French acronym will finally make sense.

Julia: Okay, I’m so glad. I’m so glad. We can start off with that actually. I’d like to know. So if you say SOJIC, SOJIC, it’s a SOJIC community but you have also another department, another name, it’s -

Hossein: Yeah, so Chris will probably have some comments about that too, but over the I think 10 plus years that I’ve been involved, both at the Ontario level and then the national level more recently, we still have members who say what does the C at the end stand for?

Chris: That’s a good question.

Hossein: Well yeah exactly. Good question. The majority of sections within both the provincial and the national level are called sections. So you have the family law section, the labour and employment section, whereas SOJIC has a C at the end. The SOJIC, and Chris, correct me if I’m wrong, forever, was a community. So we always struggled with calling it the SOJIC section, even though it had a community in the C, but thankfully we’ve now addressed that issue on more than one front, I would like to say.

Over the past year and a bit, the section took on some soul searching and we struck a working group to look into a change in the name of the community or the section that we were to really better reflect the diversity of the communities that we represent. But we also wanted to make sure that the name sounded well and it made sense in both official languages.

So a large group of folks from coast to coast to coast, including our wonderful members in Québec, came together, and many of the listeners may know this already, but as of September 1^st, the section will no longer be SOJIC, but it will be the Sexual and Gender Diversity Alliance or SAGDA. And we’re very thrilled about that because it sounds great. It’s more inclusive and it better represents the variety of sexual and gender communities that we represent.

Chris: Going way back, it was the Sexual and Gender Identity Committee. And then I think some people started calling it [CAUCUS?] just to keep the C in there somehow. And I guess way at the beginning there wasn’t a Québec branch of SOJIC at the beginning, so to be inclusive I think some people were trying to say SOJIQUE to make it sound French. There was that for a little while. And then finally, I think maybe it was around 2004, the Barreau du Québec started, or the CBA branch in Québec, we finally got a Québec branch of SOJIC going. And I think Marie Laura LeClaire was quite instrumental in that. I remember we had a big event in Montreal.

But yeah, change is good, I’m glad to hear that. The name definitely needed some updating.

Chris: And the French acronym stands for Alliance a la Diversité Sexuelle et de Genre. ADSG.

Julia: That’s it. Love it, love it. And obviously it’s easier for me now because in French it was a bit like a puzzle. I didn’t know if it was in English, the same sexual and gender diverse. I didn’t even know how to say it. So now I will for now on use SAGDA because I love that.

Hossein: Ou ADSG.

Julia: Exactly, exactly.

Chris: I might slip out of force of habit and say SOJIC.

Julia: Of course.

Chris: But you know what I mean.

Hossein: Likewise. Likewise. I think we were at a meeting not long ago, and I talked about the name change. And there were Francophones in the room and somebody said, “Oh that’s very exciting, what does the acronym stand for in French?” And I’m like, give me a piece of paper, I need to write this down.

Julia: Really I love it, and that would bring me to one question that maybe you have faced, maybe you’re facing often, which is when people are asking, but why is it important, you know? Why is it important to change it from SOJIC, for instance to SAGDA and to be more inclusive? I mean isn’t it enough letters that you have? So what’s your answer to that?

Chris: That’s a great question. You know the, what I’ll call the awkwardness of the section versus community for a long time, had made folks think about what a different name would look like. But at the same time, I think Chris would appreciate this more than many others, SOJIC means a lot to a lot of us, the name itself. I thought of SOJIC as just a thing, without really always thinking about what it exactly stood for word for word.

So for some of us who have been around longer, it was difficult to switch names overnight, without giving it proper thought, without talking to the folks who’d been around for a long time, who knew of the history and the background of the section. But we also wanted to talk about our newer members, and their desires, how they wanted the section to look like and sound like going forward. And you know, sexual orientation and gender identity did not represent the variety of the communities that we represent and that make up 2SLGBTQI+ communities.

So those variety of things really brought us to the table and the section really took a long time, talking to different people and thinking about it before we made a change. We didn’t want this to be something that needed to be revisited again next year, right. The name is not in set stone. I think it’s such as the section is a living tree that evolves and grows and takes shape, depending on who is a member of it and who’s running it.

So very long answer to your question, but it was a lot of soul searching and making sure that everybody felt welcome and included, not only in the section, but also in the title of the section.

Chris: And I think that reflects – I mean gosh, it’s pushing 25 years now since I’ve been involved in SOJIC, but attending more recent events, I was away from SOJIC, but attending more events now, the attendees, like the membership, looks very different than it did back then. I think it’s also a reflection of the profession. The profession has changed but SOJIC, back then was mostly male, maybe about 10 or 15% female, and a few trans folks, but you didn’t – we didn’t really talk about, even though it was in the name, gender identity wasn’t as prominent then as it is now.

But attending events, it’s a much more diverse group now than it was back then. So I think it’s right and proper, certainly that the name has been updated and I applaud the current executives for taking that step.

Julia: Yeah, definitely, and now that we are on the subject, can you tell our listeners, who I know will be listening to the podcast with the interest of joining the SAGDA, so that would be SAGDA section or SAGDA, just SAGDA?

Chris: That’s always the question.

Hossein: There we go, we wanted to leave that section out for all those interested. I’m happy to sit down with a cup of tea or coffee and talk about it. [Laughs]

Chris: I think it mattered way back as far as the CBA was concerned, because it was a difference between a committee and a section, and that sort of stuff. I don’t think that that is as important now. So SOJIC and SAGDA, they are what they are. I guess we’re creating a new category, are we Hossein, of alliance? Is that?

Hossein: I don’t think we’re creating, at least not on purpose, we’re not creating a new category.

Chris: We’re unique.

Hossein: But I think we are a different section within the CBA.

Chris: Yes.

Hossein: And that’s something that we have forever pushed for in terms of our membership, in terms of access to programming, the type of programming that we provide, the partnerships that we have. SOJIC, despite having strong advocacy and substantive law pieces to it, it is above and beyond that really. So I think it’s very fair and in fact accurate for the section to be different, to be sui generis, if I may throw a legal term in there.

So we are different, but at the same time, we are not, if you will.

Chris: I don’t know now, Hossein, but I know way back, we were always very careful with membership lists and registration and that sort of thing. People certainly 20 or more years ago, especially if they were not out at their firms or even to their family, or at all professionally, we would try to be as encouraging to get people to attend events and make connections as mentors and mentees, without – in a way that was comfortable to them.

So they could participate at whatever level they wanted to. I get the sense that that’s changed, as society has changed, as profession has changed in general. I think there’s a little, certainly a lot less fear among gay men and lesbians, about being out. Obviously there’s still a lot of issues that we need to work on in terms of supporting other elements of – and I should say that I use the word queer, partly because I’m not a fan of – I get both sides of the argument about the acronym, but my go-to word is queer.

I think that encompasses the whole community. And it can mean what you want it to mean as well. It’s a fluid word. But yeah, I’m really very pleased and encouraged about the changes that I’ve seen in SAGDA, SOJIC. And I’ve recently stepped in the last couple of years, stepped into getting involved again and it’s exciting. I really, in a way it’s sort or rekindling that excitement I had when I was an articling student and getting involved in SOJIC.

It was I think, at the time, when I first started, it was much more of a social and support group. And then issues like same sex marriage came along and that really galvanized SOJIC. Our membership just went through the roof. And at the yearly Pride reception at the Law Society, at Osgoode Hall, I remember I think it was 2004 or 2005, that the huge room was packed, just packed.

And I think Justice [Loro Debay?] was there, Chief Justice McMurtry I think was there at the time as well, tons of judges, cabinet ministers, everybody, benchers, everybody wanted to be involved at that point. But yeah, it’s, as I said, it’s great to see how the group has come along.

Hossein: If I may add something, Chris, when you talked about that email list, it made me smile, because I had a flashback to when I first joined. I’m a bit younger than Chris, but a lot of what he said resonates with me perfectly. I do remember when SOJIC was no more than a list of emails, like an email list that one individual had and they held it dearly close to their heart and they did not share it for all the reasons that Chris talked about.

And it’s important to talk about how far we’ve come, how much progress has been made, because the state of affairs in the world, in the country, south of us and elsewhere, is pretty grim and sad. But it’s good to keep in mind the progress that has been made, to celebrate it, to recognize it, but also not forget about not taking it for granted.

So I remember that vividly, that email list that if you wanted to send something to folks, you had to go talk to X person who if they thought it was appropriate, they would send that email onwards and wouldn’t share those emails. It’s not the case anymore. I’m very happy to say that. We have a very diverse membership of folks from across the country ticking any of the boxes within the queer or 2SLGBTQ+ community and everybody brings their whole self to our meetings, to our discussions. They are passionate about some issues more than others, and we’re more than happy, as I had the pleasure of being the chair this past year, to support folks in talking about and advancing an issue that was important to them.

So much to celebrate.

Chris: That, Hossein, when you got involved was probably what 10, 12 years ago. I think?

Hossein: That’s about right.

Chris: I think that was in the wake of – and as much as the struggle for same sex marriage invigorated SOJIC, and the wider community, I think once that was accomplished, a lot of people thought, well the struggle’s over. We’ve got everything we want now. So I noticed the membership became a little bit less involved, numbers went down to a certain extent. So I think that might have been, Hossein, around the time that you joined. And I remember going to those receptions at the law society, and the numbers were going down every year.

But I’m glad to say, my perception is, and Hossein, you’d know better that I would, that other issues have come to the fore, and other elements, other segments of the queer community, their interests, their concerns, their issues within the profession are now being pushed in a way that they weren’t before unfortunately.

Hossein: Absolutely and folks are so, so passionate, whether they practice in the area, or they really do the work of SOJIC as their sidekick really. Whether they’re doing advocacy work or helping put together events to help draft letters to governments, you name it, there’s always somebody who’s eager to really go out of their way to support the work of the section.

Julia: I love to hear that, and can you tell us a bit more like what’s under your radar these days, because I mean we know that we have seen arise the far-right movement and extreme religious groups everywhere and not to mention the new NTLGBT law in Uganda for instance or in the US. And I’d like to know have you felt those backlashes in Canada and what we take for granted, that we need to keep on our radar?

Hossein: Some I can say to that question of yours.

Julia: I know, it’s a huge question.

Hossein: It was a big question, yeah, and I’ll try and touch on some of them. I’m sure Chris will have some thoughts to share as well.

Julia: Of course.

Hossein: One of the biggest issues that we try to bring to the forefront and address was the increase in hate that was disproportionately impacting our communities. That was across the country but also across the world really. And with the leadership of CBA President, Steeves Bujold, you know, we had not just an ally in the sense of the term, but a member of the community at the helm of the CBA.

And we were really able to bring those issues to the attention of not only our membership but the broader membership and the community outside of the legal profession. So dealing with that hate, engaging with the government to try and figure out what their anti-hate strategy is. And that’s the work that I don’t want to say started, the work that kind of put a lot of focus on it this past term, but it’s work that we’re working closely with the government and other similar minded organizations to pursue over the years to come.

Another issue that unfortunately we continue to keep hearing about is with respect to trans youth and the various policies that we’re seeing either pop up or get amended at various school boards. That’s another issue that was very important to the membership. What else? We wrote a record number of letters to the government, asking for legislative change this year. And I really want to salute the membership. They did an incredible amount of work. I’ve been involved for many years.

And like Chris said, the level of engagement and excitement goes up and down with the membership, given the atmosphere, given what’s going on in our community and in our country. But the past couple of years, folks have been incredibly involved and busy. So there was a lot. I wrote about some of it in my end of term for our newsletter, or update if you will. But a lot of that work will continue in the years to come.

Chris: I think there’s so much more happening at this point, in 2023, than we thought there would be. As you mentioned, Uganda, but there’s even been reverses in rights and tolerance in countries like Poland and Hungary which are members of the EU. The United States, there seems to be a wave of politicians, you know, these ridiculous initiatives focusing on what should not be controversial, like drag queen story time. Why are these issues coming to the fore?

But unfortunately those issues seem to be galvanizing a certain segment of the population and those people are themselves putting pressure on politicians who are looking for votes. You know, we’ve seen politicians even in our country posing with people wearing blatantly anti queer T shirts. And those are signals to people that these attitudes are acceptable when they shouldn’t be in 2023 in Canada.

It just underscores how important it is to remain vigilant. And especially in our profession, we’re so, as Hossein said, we’re uniquely placed to put pressure on government and other segments of civil society that can have an influence in these areas. You know, the struggle continues. Our resistance to these actions is as important as it ever was. And there are no small acts as far as I’m concerned. Just going out and attending Prides, publicly being ourselves is a political act.

Not everybody is in the privileged position that we are as lawyers and paralegals to have that voice, to have that influence. But it’s important for everybody, just the act of being yourself is a political act.

Julia: We know that many lawyers, or as you say paralegals, they are themselves part of the SAGDA, but they will also decide to take on some difficult cases that involve injustice. So they will decide to write letters and to be members of the SAGDA, of the CBA, and they are of course putting themselves under the light of maybe homophobia or hate comments. And as you mentioned, Hossein, this is on the rise as well, all this hate. And I’d like to know what’s done to support these human rights defenders in Canada? Maybe with the CBA or what should be done?

Chris: Well I think no one should be doing this work alone. Even at later sages of our careers, we need mentors and support. I’d like to see folks turning to SOJIC for that support if they can’t find it in their own personal and professional circles. It is very draining work. Hossein, we’ve been to events where people are talking about burnout, particularly in the lawyers and paralegals in the queer community. And it is, there are times when you get a bad decision or things go backwards. And it is very draining, it is disheartening. But it is, more than anything, important to establish that that support network around yourself, and for those of us who in a position, who have been around awhile, to reach out to those who may need mentorship or just encouragement.

As a profession, sometimes we’re better at that than other times. But we are a helping profession, as far as I’m concerned, and we should be there for each other.

Hossein: I would agree with everything you said, Chris. And in terms of what SOJIC and soon, SAGDA, has done and continues to do is to really create those connections for folks, to welcome folks into our community of 2SLGBTQ+ lawyers and allies, for mentorship, for support. Sometimes people just want to share what they just went through, and hear that they’re not alone. And that’s why during my time on the executive, I’ve always had this open-door policy of you’re always welcome, whether you signed up or not. We want you there, and we want to hear from you and please connect with us.

That’s something that I’ve always said and I say that to folks who are friends outside of my CBA, SOJIC capacity, as a friend, as a – if I could call myself a mentor, but somebody who you can come and talk to, to really support each other. Because as Chris said, this is not work of one person, this is the work of a community. It’s a fight. It’s sometimes a war and it’s exhausting. And folks shouldn’t feel like they’re doing it alone.

Chris: And it’s a habit too. I think I was saying: I remember when you first reached out to me, I think you were a student and I think we met here in Ottawa. And it’s great, you know, with a bit of pride to see how you’ve blossomed in your career and how you’re paying it forward and gotten involved in SOJIC. When you can give, it instills I think, or helps encourage, foster that attitude in other people, in a paying it forward sort of way.

Julia: We’ve been recording a lot for another podcast that touched on a report about gender discrimination and the place of women in the legal profession. But everybody’s been saying the importance of the network. And what you just said, I know this network that you create with SOJIC, soon to be SAGDA, it’s so important. And everybody says it’s the only way to make sure that stories are shared, and people feel more empowered and have the strength to continue and go on.

But I also agree with you that this is not a fight to be done alone. And if I have the community, the alliance, but it’s also you know, people need allies, as a word. It’s a difficult word in English, but allies, good allies. And that’s often a question I want to ask people is like, we talk about the good ally, the accomplice or – what does it mean to you? What is a good ally?

Chris: That’s a big question.

Hossein: I read that bullshit. [Laughs].

Julia: I only have too many questions for you guys.

Chris: What is the meaning of friendship? What is the meaning of love?

Julia: Let’s go.

Chris: What is life?

Julia: Exactly, what’s life really?

Hossein: We’ve all heard the textbook definition of it. And there’s that general understanding of it that allyship comes from those who are not members of the community. To me allyship is much more than that, you know. I can be an ally to a trans person because I’m not trans, but a member of the community in the same way that somebody who is cis gender, can be an ally to me.

So to me, allyship is a much broader term. It’s about understanding, it’s about supporting, it’s about you know, being the voice where there isn’t a voice for the community. So I expect good friends and allies of mine to speak up against homophobia in a room where me or another member of the community is not present. To me, that’s allyship. Allyship is not just showing up to the Pride parade and showing up to the office Pride event. It's speaking up when you’re in a group of folks, and somebody makes an inappropriate and/or homophobic joke which they think is cool, to speak up and say, “Buddy, that’s not right. You shouldn’t say that.”

To me that’s allyship. But also allyship is mentorship, to go and support – and I’m speaking to us, members of the community – you know, when you see a new student or somebody more junior to you joining the firm, or your place of business, to be a welcoming and supporting individual. I have a Pride flag. I’ve always had a Pride flag in my office, very prominently placed because I want folks to see it the minute they walk into my office.

Good old days before Covid, the students would get tours, in person of the physical spaces, and oftentimes they would knock on doors of people to say hello, you know, “So and so is a member of the firm. Welcome to the firm,” type thing. And I always had that Pride flag there because I wanted those students to see the flag, to know that it’s – I am a member of the community, or an ally. They don’t know that necessarily, but to know that I celebrate my Pride with pride. So that’s also part of allyship, to support – I don’t want to say the next generation – but to extend the support to other members of the community.

Chris: I agree. That’s very well said. Hossein, I would add that in a sense, it’s a way for those who have power and agency in a particular forum, to lend that power and voice to those who may not have it, or may be in a particular situation, speaking up for others, as Hossein said, when they can’t speak up for themselves.

Hossein: That was a much more eloquent answer to your question, Julia.

Julia: No, no, both answers were, I’m telling you, it’s like perfect. I know it was a hard one, but I really love your answer both very much. And also you know, deconstructing the idea that allyship is only from people who are cisgender, friends, but it’s everybody.

Chris: That’s right.

Julia: I love that. I keep that. So and when we talk about definition, I know, what does it mean to you? Well, I also have another question for you. Because we know June was Pride month, and in Montreal we had Pride two weekends ago and in Quebec City we’re going to have it again in September. Anyway, we have friends everywhere. And I’d like to know what does Pride mean to you these days, because I mean there is this political aspect to it that I think sometimes people forget it, people who look at this, who might be uncomfortable or whatever, and they think Pride is just – yeah. They don’t see the political aspect of it. So I’d like to know, for you, what does Pride mean, and not just Pride month, but in general?

Chris: Well small P pride for me, it literally means the opposite of shame. It means undoing all the negative socialization that many queer folks experienced throughout their lives, particularly before they find a like-minded community. So quite literally turning that shame into pride.

Capital P pride is more complex. For me, I’ve spent many years on the boards of Pride organizations locally, nationally and internationally, which meant everything from organizing parades, at times making sure the garbage cans were in the right place, and putting barriers, to representing Pride organizations at international events all over the world.

For me, that was an amazingly rewarding experience and I’ve made close friends and learned so much about people all over the world. But as I say, if you like sausages, you shouldn’t watch them being made. It’s similar with Pride. It is a heck of a lot of work behind the scenes, blood, sweat and tears, year-round. Pride doesn’t fall out of the sky one week or one weekend of the year. It’s a year-round job. And one thing everybody should do is show some love to the local Pride organizers.

It’s very often a thankless task, done by committed and passionate activists who are not necessarily the ones who are recognized or the most flashy in the community.

Hossein: What is Pride to me? I guess the first thing I’ll say is June is Pride month in Toronto. So we made a targeted effort to call it Pride season, within CBA, SOJIC, because like you said, I think June month is where I guess the highest number of communities across the country celebrate Pride. But it certainly continues with Montreal, then to Quebec. Then you go further west and east. They all have their Pride celebrations across the Pride season calendar, if you will. So I’ve been calling it Pride season.

Chris: It’s this week in Ottawa.

Hossein: There you go, yeah. Capital Pride, I have marched in that a number of times. But what is Pride to me? You know, having grown up in Iran, I don’t think I need to tell the listeners what the situation is in Iran. But then coming to Canada, to a place where I could walk down Yonge Street, scream and shout, do anywhere and whatever the heck I wanted during the parade, that is Pride.

So Pride to me is about not being ashamed, like Chris mentioned. Pride is about being recognized, honoured and celebrated. But Pride is also an opportunity to educate, to fight intolerance. And at the heart of it, you know, we sometimes forget about it because Pride is about glamour and music and colour and a lot of fun. And it is fun, but Pride is a fight.

It started as a fight and it continues as a fight. One of the examples I give folks is, Istanbul has not had a Pride parade, I want to say since 2015. And I had the privilege of being in Istanbul that last summer where they had a parade. It started as a lot of us getting our faces painted, performers on the street, people dancing, people singing, people making placards and stuff like that. But it ended with the police attacking people, with people – sorry.

So that is Pride to me as well. And they haven’t had that for in excess of eight years. So people shouldn’t forget that that is also Pride.

Chris: Yeah, as I said, I travelled. Inter-Pride is the International Association of Pride Organizers, and Pride looks, as Hossein said, it looks very different in North America or Europe than it does in other parts of the world.

One thing I would say to listeners, particularly those who are lawyers and paralegals, and this is based off of my experience with Pride organizations, is that very often, these organizations are desperately in need of the skills that lawyers and paralegals have to offer. And I don’t mean being a lawyer or a paralegal, I mean the ways of thinking, little things like making sure the contracts are in place, or that human resources policies are in place.

We have a way of thinking of things, and a way of communicating, even running meetings. These are skills that not just Pride organizations, but all kinds of queer organizations are desperately in need of. And it’s, like a lot of volunteer positions. It’s a win-win situation, because, especially younger lawyers or paralegals can get skills and develop their careers and make contacts through these outside organizations, that will benefit them in their career and personally as well.

Julia: That’s also – thank you Chris. I think that’s an aspect that I haven’t thought of but that can be very useful as well. But thank you both for your answers. And I know it’s a difficult subject, because also it touches us directly. So thank you very much for being here, for taking the time to answer all my questions, so thank you.

So you’re probably aware of The National Study on the Psychological Health Determinants of Legal Professionals in Canada. The name is very long. So it was conducted by the University of Sherbrooke. So the CBA was also part of that study and supported it because the CBA is always so nice in doing those kinds of things.

And one of the findings was that the occurrence of psychological distress was significantly higher among SAGDA legal professionals than among their non-SOJIC, or LGBT or SAGDA counterparts. What they found is that the level of stress was in part caused by the fact that some people of the SAGDA are not comfortable to share their sexual orientation or their gender identity or expression with their colleagues, because well, maybe they fear what will be the reaction, or they are just uncomfortable with sharing that with them, because it’s not an environment that they feel is safe.

So there’s X, Y, Z, reasons for that. The fact is just that we know that, and the report showed that. So you talked before of the importance of the network, of the community. But I’d like to know if you have other tips or tools that you could share to support people who are in this situation. And I’d also like to mention that what struck me in the report is that some people, thanks to Covid, they felt more comfortable working because they could stay at home.

And I think this is something interesting, using technology, to make sure that people are comfortable and can do their job properly. But at the same time, I think it’s very sad, because you know, it’s putting a mandate, but not really improving the situation at work. But yeah, so I’d like to know if you have any tools, any experiences that you want to share.

Hossein: I haven’t read the report itself but sadly I’m not surprised or shocked by the findings. Once again, our community has taken a higher toll than the rest, because take an articling student who starts their articling, and that itself comes with significant strains, financially, mentally, timewise.

Now add to that the fact that you don’t feel comfortable being yourself or bringing your full self to work. That somebody keeps asking whether you have – you’re a guy and they keep asking where’s your girlfriend, or if you have a wife, or vice versa. That doesn’t make you more comfortable. In fact not only you feel like you are at risk as a human of being discriminated, but you’re also scared that you’re not going to get the job potentially.

And those realities unfortunately are very true to this day. I’m happy to see that a lot or organizations, both private and public firms, government, are actually doing excellent initiatives on diversity and inclusion to make a healthier, safer, more welcoming environment for members of the communities.

But I think we should also do some work ourselves. Sadly, we have to do it all, all the time. It never ends. And you know, I as one try doing that by educating, by putting out that Pride flag, by paying it forward like Chris said. But I think my kind of suggestion to folks is look for allies in your workplace, and they will first of all, support you, but they will also help you grow more comfortable in your own shoes, being yourself.

But at the end of the day, as somebody said to me many years ago when I was thinking about coming out, for the God knows how manyth time, after I had moved to Canada, coming out is a deeply personal decision. It varies from person to person. The right time is different for different people.

And I always tell folks, you have to think about yourself, your safety, your health, well being before you do it. So that always kind of trumps everything. Look out for yourself because you may be in a community or a work environment where people are not necessarily looking out for you. But also, try to be smart about the types of workplaces that you put yourself in.

It doesn’t help that you hear in the news that a shop owner in the States was shot for having rainbow flags in their store. It’s disgusting. It’s heartbreaking and it’s unbelievable at the same time in 2023. But again, you got to be vigilant. You got to look out for yourself, and look for allies. SOJIC was my community, remains my community. People like Chris and others have become lifelong friends. I’ve called Chris to complain. I’ve called Chris to whine. I’ve also called Chris to just say hello and share.

And that applies to many folks across my network that I’ve either met through SOJIC or otherwise. So, create a community around yourself. Surround yourself with good people, supportive people, and keep going at it.

Chris: Yeah, again, that’s well said. And these issues were I think the key drivers – I wasn’t around at the time – but the key drivers in bringing SOJIC together in the first place back in the early 1990s, the sense that a lot of people had that they were alone at their firm. They were being faced with all these pressures, these questions. I think the landscape has changed quite a bit.

There’s a lot more support outside. But still no one is going to understand the culture of a law firm or whatever context you’re working in as your colleagues will. And I think SOJIC still has that very important role to play. And I would say that if there’s one challenge that SOJIC has always had, and perhaps other sections of the CBA too, is reaching out beyond the larger centers. It often seems like everything is centred around Toronto or in terms of OBA, anyway, but the CBA, the larger centres.

But there’s plenty of folks who are working away in very small towns that need support too. And as we said before, it’s incumbent upon us who have been around a long time -

Hossein: Some more than others, Chris.

Chris: Well yeah. That’s right. Things were quite different in the 1990s. But it’s incumbent upon those of us who have been around a long time and have a bit more agency and security, to reach out to those who may need that support and to actively act as mentors, and make it known to those who are looking for it, that you’re there for them.

And I think a lot of programs that some firms and government organizations have, now they have Pride Champions, so there is that one person there who you know you can go to if you’re encountering an issue in the workplace.

Juilia: But I think also when I was asking you the question, as I was still thinking, and I was like, tools and tips for those people. But I think we should also talk about prevention, because I think this should be a wakeup call for many firms, that it should not be the case. So yeah, it’s important to have a community. It’s important to have the network. But at the very first, we should just prevent that. And I think this is the responsibility of the firms.

And Hossein, when you say the famous question like, where’s your wife or where’s your husband, this is really a heteronormative way. But you can get rid of them easily in like a policy, and you know, and educate the people in your firm and have those, I don’t know, lunch, when you talk about those issues and you just make sure people, of why there’s transphobia and what is, yeah, all of this yeah. So I think really a responsibility that firms have to take.

Hossein: If I may add to that, one of the things that I have been doing and pushing for in meetings I chair, in my workplace, is around pronouns. I’m very male looking, male acting, pretty cis in that regard. But I insist on using my pronouns in meetings, in my signature, things like that. Because it’s not just about me. People know that I go by he/him, but it’s for that one person that may or may not be at that meeting who may be struggling or not feeling comfortable, not knowing what kind of audience they have.

That simple he/him in brackets in front of your name, moves mountains for somebody who may still be struggling with their place in a particular meeting, in a particular community or organization. And I’ve had that conversation. People are like, “Well everybody knows. Everyone’s met my wife. Everyone’s met my three kids. They all know I’m a he. They all know I’m a she,” whatever. But I’m like it’s not just about you. It’s about visibility. And a lot of what SOJIC, SAGDA has been for me and others is about visibility.

You know, same sex is legal in Canada. That’s fact. But you continue to see the need for visibility. Otherwise we wouldn’t have all these issues. We wouldn’t have trans kids having so many obstacles in schools, and people fighting over that. So you know, small things like that go a long way. But again, looking at the glass half full, we’ve come a long way.

I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago in Montreal, the prison conference, a new national 2SLGBTQ+ organization, and one of the keynotes was delivered by Justice Gail McKenzie, who remains – and unfortunately remains the only trans judge in the country. And it was heartwarming hearing some of the stories of what being on the bench as a trans person means, not only to him, but also to the folks who come before him.

He shared a story of a trans youth who appeared before him, and that particular trans youth had made an effort to reach out to him afterwards, to say thank you. Having you as a judge, even though Judge McKenzie had to give him a sentence, sorry, give them a sentence, I don’t recall their pronouns. But that person felt empowered seeing a trans person, despite sentencing them, but trying to put them back on the right track.

So there is positive change and we should celebrate it. So folks who are listening to this, if you’re eligible, I highlight that the government is looking, even though they’re not appointing people as quickly as they should, but we need more representation on the bench as well. That’s something that I tried to educate on. It’s something that I hope to do as I transition out of my chair role, is around representation on the bench. We have some wonderful members of the community already on the bench, and that makes a huge difference.

But we are more than 1% of the society. So the representation on the bench should mirror that of the community.

Julia: If someone is not a member yet of SOJIC to become SAGDA, what do you tell them, like what should they do and do they reach out to you? Do they just go on the webpage? How does it work and like how much time, it depends I guess on the involvement you want to have.

Hossein: Go ahead Chris.

Chris: Hossein, you’re still involved right now, so I’ll leave it to you. But one thing that I noticed that I really am please to see is the names and bios of all the executive members on the website. It makes it much easier I think for folks to identify one person or reach out to them individually if they feel comfortable doing that. I think that’s a wonderful initiative that – I keep saying SOJIC. I know I have to say SAGDA. It will come to me, Hossein, I promise.

Hossein: What I will say, here’s my shameless pitch. Come and join us. SAGDA and SOJIC is always looking for members. Whether you simply want to have a place to dial in once a month and feel like you’re within a community of supportive people, or if you’d like to do advocacy work, if you’d like to do education, if you’d like to do CPP programming, or if you’d like to do something that I didn’t mention, and you think that SOJIC, SAGDA could either support it or facilitate it, please reach out.

I know the nomination period for this year did close. But you know, you can always join the section at any time. I know that we still have positions available on the executive for members at large, and one of the things that makes us different from other sections is that I have always said that there. is no cap on the number of members of the executive. And everybody and anybody is welcome to join.

If you’re a student, you get a complimentary membership I think in most provincial and territorial sections. I don’t want to speak out of turn. I know in Ontario for example, students get a complimentary membership and I invite you to basically sign up otherwise and send the bill to your firm or respective place of employment, and say, “I have signed up for the CBA, SOJIC section,” and I would love for them to say: we’re not going to cover this, and then I’m happy to speak to them on your behalf.

Chris: How dare they.

Hossein: Yeah, how dare they. So please come and join us. We have a number of very exciting projects that have been continuing over the summer. Like I said, the increase in hate is something that many of our members are passionate about. We’re working closely with the secretariat within the federal government, and we’re expecting the government’s anti-hate strategy coming out soon.

We’re also working on, like I said, the issue with respect to the various policies in school boards across the country, to the extent that the CBA can opine on that. And we continue to work on HIV non-criminalization as well, and there is some legislative work going on. So there is a lot actively happening with the current government. There is an appetite for change, for legislative change, and they are – I don’t want to say begging us – but they have continuously welcomed and asked for input from the CBA.

We are very closely working with the government. They respect and value what the CBA has to offer. And we sometimes don’t have people to work on all these projects, so please come and join. And you can either email me or any member of the executive, or the wonderful staff at the CBA, and they will eventually connect you with the right person.

Chris: And it truly, it just so is worthwhile from your own career development and making contacts. I know even though I went to Queens, and a good two thirds of my class came to Toronto, but joining SOJIC introduced me to such a different and diverse aspect of the profession and I made so many contacts through SOJIC, well SOJIC at the time, SAGDA now. Right away, it is a wonderful way to quickly and meaningfully establish a community for yourself.

Julia: Thank you very much Hossein and Chris. Very interesting. Thank you for your time, for all your great inputs. And I think we have a really good podcast here.

Chris: Okay.

VOICE: This is The Every Lawyer, presented by the Canadian Bar Association.

Julia: We hope you enjoyed this podcast. Please share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you would like to learn more about the work and challenges facing SAGDA legal professionals, be sure to check out outgoing CBA President, Steeves Bujold’s podcast series, Conversations with the President, which can be found at cba.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for listening and remember you can reach out to us any time at podcasts@cba.org

Have a great day.